AB: While they are not easy problems to solve, they are simple in the sense that we already know what drives people, whether physicians or other professions, to look for other work.

The first fact: A leader, and a supervisory staff more generally, that’s capable of establishing a personal connection with the people who work with them: That’s invaluable.

Secondly, we need to create workplaces where doctors and other health care workers actually like each other and enjoy each other’s company. Under such circumstances people look forward to going to work because they look forward to seeing their friends and colleagues there.

I would like to see medicine develop the kinds of peer support systems that the police have developed. In Boston, this has helped mitigate some of the impacts of public hostility. A culture of collegiality and mutual support would go a long way towards improving the work experience of physicians.

GC: The doctors’ lounge isn’t billable. There aren’t as many doctors’ lounges around [anymore] COVID changed that too. It seems like people are more in their offices than they used to be. it’s taken away from face-to-face contact. There are a few studies, one giving physicians time to get together in groups, and there’s an assignment to take a few minutes to talk about a burnout topic, but the rest of the time they get to spend with their colleagues. If they’re given time to meet counted as administrative time, it correlate[s] with decreased burnout.

DM: It also ought to be enculturated in the guild that we belong to, that taps into the idea of not only competition, but also perfectionism. I think those two come together. But perfectionism and hyper-competitiveness in particular can be a nasty blend.

MK: How do you find time to get together when your group of 30 docs is not all going to be there on the same day or you’re covering multiple hospitals? How do you find opportunities to do some of these interventions?

DM: It’s about “work and life-outside-of-work balance,” not work/life balance. If you mandate social gatherings, you may have somebody saying: “Well, I only want to work. That’s my contract with the hospital or the university. I just want to come in for work and that’s my deal. I’ll do work, you pay me. I’ll go home.” And then there’s the challenge as others are like: “Well, I want to know who you are. I want to have time together when we’re not working. I would like to.”